Millie antiroll bar

[milliemarlin]

Many will have seen the discussion and warnings’ regarding the problems with compression struts in the thread “Safety Alert Ford Sierra Compression strut problems”.

https://www.marlinownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?7895-Safety-Alert-Ford-Sierra-Compression-strut-problems&highlight=compression

This is to document how I am approaching rectification. I don’t make any claims that it is the best way or even a good way.

First thing is to repair and strengthen the chassis and antiroll bar (arb) mounting.

The tearing in my case was slight so I simply welded up the crack.

I made up a plate to strengthen the mounting. The plate is intended to tie the mounting to the outside vertical edge of the chassis to dissipate the forces over a wider area. I did not want to disturb the existing fillet welds but to weld over them. So I bent the plate to be slightly dished. This also had the advantage that the reinforcement was attached closer to the arb. The front edge of the reinforcing plate was arranged to be a little way back from an existing weld in the chassis to avoid any additional stressing in this area. An initial cardboard template was used to cut the plates from 3mm steel. I think the chassis is about 3mm or less in this area so the reinforcement should effectively double it.

Img_8544s.jpg

The paint was removed from all areas to be welded. Zink primer applied. The plate was welded on three sides. My welding at its very best is adequate. Three millimetres is right on the limit of my MIG welder. I also found it hard to weld upside down and did not have much room to manoeuvre. The result was not very good looking but I believe it is strong. Every 10 minutes of welding needs an hour or more of cleaning up. The inner “sides” were left un-welded to allow corrosion protection to be sprayed in. They will be sealed up with filler.

Img_8551s.jpg

I have a number of commitments in the coming weeks so it will be a little while before I can continue this project.

In the meantime has anyone any experience of Quinton Hazell QH QSK1000S Heavy Duty Track Control Arm Bush Ford Sierra 1982- 1993. These seem to be a little more rigid than the standard Sierra items but not as rigid as Polyurethane. I would be interested if any other members have tried them.

Img_8568s.jpg


Paul

[greyV8pete]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

I had a similar idea but would make the plate with a 90deg vertical bend to finish higher up the outside of the chassis rail, to spread the load over an even bigger area.


Unlike the Berli which uses 3mm seam welded M/S box, the Cabrio chassis is only 2mm thick!


I used those QH Heavy Duty track control arms on my old ‘87 Sierra and they were so restrictive of the ARB movement that the rubber wore out in about 12 months max. I then fitted the Superflex bushes but reverted to the correct O/E Ford washers. After I purchased my Hunter I made a similar change. Using the correct Ford washers (with the dished one at the front) there is better articulation of the joint than with the H/D rubber!


Search elsewhere on the forum where I have documented all the part numbers. Peter.

[Peterx]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

In the meantime has anyone any experience of Quinton Hazell QH QSK1000S Heavy Duty Track Control Arm Bush Ford Sierra 1982- 1993. These seem to be a little more rigid than the standard Sierra items but not as rigid as Polyurethane. I would be interested if any other members have tried them.

Paul

Paul,

This may or may not be relevant to a Marlin Cabrio but, as you may be aware, the Royale Sabre also use the Ford Sierra suspension including the the Track Control Arms and ARB.
Some years back it was reported in the ROC club magazine a short article about these bushes. It said.....

Still on the subject of suspension, I am grateful to Oliver Cooke for news of a Ford Technical Bulletin advising against replacing the track control arm compliance bushes with after-market heavy duty units. These heavy duty bushes, which attach to the anti-roll bar to the track control arm have been available for some time to overcome the premature failure of the standard Ford items which are a frequent cause of MOT failure. Although the heavy duty bushes overcome the problem, Ford state that the standard Ford bushes are specifically designed to distort under heavy braking in order to improve the cars stability whereas the heavy duty units do not distort and Ford believe that they could have been a contributory factor in some accidents.


I've been unable to trace the Ford Technical Bulletin and have no further information but thought I would share this information.

....peter

[greyV8pete]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

Paul,

This may or may not be relevant to a Marlin Cabrio but, as you may be aware, the Royale Sabre also use the Ford Sierra suspension including the the Track Control Arms and ARB.
Some years back it was reported in the ROC club magazine a short article about these bushes. It said.....

Still on the subject of suspension, I am grateful to Oliver Cooke for news of a Ford Technical Bulletin advising against replacing the track control arm compliance bushes with after-market heavy duty units. These heavy duty bushes, which attach to the anti-roll bar to the track control arm have been available for some time to overcome the premature failure of the standard Ford items which are a frequent cause of MOT failure. Although the heavy duty bushes overcome the problem, Ford state that the standard Ford bushes are specifically designed to distort under heavy braking in order to improve the cars stability whereas the heavy duty units do not distort and Ford believe that they could have been a contributory factor in some accidents.


I've been unable to trace the Ford Technical Bulletin and have no further information but thought I would share this information.

....peter

Never heard of this before. Never noticed any of these symptoms on my Sierra with either these H/D bushes or the replacement Superflex ones. Equally no adverse effect with the Superflex fitted to the Hunter. With both cars the Superflex gave much more precise steering than either of the previously fitted bushes. I have also done some very heavy braking in the Hunter on the Castle Combe circuit without any sense of instability. Peter.

[chris_cussen]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

I'll have to second Peters comment. Superflex on my cabrio and no issues under heavy braking either.

[milliemarlin]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

In the unlikely event that I find myself on Mastermind I will choose “Ford Sierra Anti-Roll Bars 1982–1993” as my specialist subject. Who would think there could be so many variations? I asked several breakers on eBay if they would send me an ARB only one replied. He offered a Sierra Sapphire for £40. It was 24mm diameter. Judging from eBay the thicker 28mm versions command a premium often offered for more than £100. I would prefer a thinner one. I am reliable informed that they are available in 18mm diameter.

The very rusty ARB arrived and I compared it to my original bent one. Unsurprisingly one side was shorter. Rather surprisingly the other side was longer. I’m not sure why. The centre section was bent forward on the new one whereas the old one leaned back. I assume a different engine required additional clearance.
Img_8598s.jpg

Both sides measured the same.

Img_8601s.jpg

I cleaned and rubbed down the ARB ready for painting. The old one had been painted with Hammerite satin. For some reason I can’t get that to stick anymore so I experimented with POR-15. Purchased as a starter, kit three different coats were applied in turn. The finish was every bit as good as the original Hammerite. It comes with dire warnings about not breathing in the fumes so I wonder if this American product doesn’t have the same formulation restrictions. Somewhat disappointingly the instructions warned that an extra coat is required on parts subject to UV light. So I ended up top coating it with Hammerite smooth!

The parts required a considerable amount of cajoling to get them in place. This evening I feel like I’ve been wrestling a bear.

Thanks to all for your comments on the QH Heavy Duty track control arm bushes. Not the resounding endorsement I had hoped for. I have decided to fit them anyway. I do not have the original Sierra washers. Although I asked for the replacement ARB to include them they were too rusty and worn to be serviceable. The QH items come complete with washers, sleeve and nuts. I doubt that the lighter Cabrio will see braking problems. Most importantly; I had already bought them.

Img_8611s.jpg

So all that left is to take it for a test drive. Unfortunately, I am having a battery issue and can’t get it to start at the moment. Double doh!!

[Peterx]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

The very rusty ARB arrived and I compared it to my original bent one. Unsurprisingly one side was shorter. Rather surprisingly the other side was longer. I’m not sure why. The centre section was bent forward on the new one whereas the old one leaned back. I assume a different engine required additional clearance.
[ATTACH]10713[/ATTACH]

Both sides measured the same.

[ATTACH]10714[/ATTACH]

Did you come across this thread in your research?

https://passionford.com/forum/general-car-related-discussion/492346-3dr-antiroll-bar.html

Not sure if it is relevant to yours, but it will be interesting to see the effect your new ARB has on your caster.

[milliemarlin]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

Did you come across this thread in your research?

https://passionford.com/forum/general-car-related-discussion/492346-3dr-antiroll-bar.html

Not sure if it is relevant to yours, but it will be interesting to see the effect your new ARB has on your caster.

No I hadn’t seen that thread. I wish I had before painting my ARB. Thanks for sharing it.

To summarise the thread there is a difference between the three and the four door Sierra ARB. The four door is marked H14 and the Track Control Arm (TCA) mounting shoulder is about 10-12mm further forward than the 3 door. The three door is marked H12.

My old ARB, I assume, was from the donor which was an estate car. To add to the confusion it is marked H2.

The new ARB is from a 4 door. I will need to take the wheel off to check but I assume it is a H14. This would explain why my caster angle looks too big. Darn it!

The compression struts were close to being the shortest adjustment possible.

If only Ford made them adjustable.

I did take the car round the block but the toe in is way out. I hope to adjust that tommorrow.
Paul

[kahawi]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

Paul, I hate to add to your worries, but…. The washers either side of the compliance bushes look a ‘tad’ small, compared to mine? I’m sure V8Pete will put me right here, but when I replaced the rubbers on our Hunter with Superflex ones, I bought two new pairs of washers from our local Ford dealer, who had to import them from Germany! (Cost – don’t ask)!

Part No’s FMU 6172539 and FMU 6172540 (2-off each)

They are 2-1/2 inch dia, compared to those originally fitted at 2-1/8 inch (63 & 54mm)

Note the rearward one is flat and appears closer up to the bush than yours?

See photo:-

Dished Washers.jpg

[milliemarlin]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

Well some good news to start. The faulty battery was replaced without quibble.

Thanks for the pictures kahawi. The washers are small, just over 51 mm (2in) I did check and they won’t fit through the hole! As the rubbers and washers were bought as a set I’m fairly confident they are ok. Front and back are identical, both dished.

The area where the ARB identification is stamped was very rusty and I can’t read it.

I have now set the toe in. I was flabbergasted to find the toe in was about 12mm quite a difference from the 2mm I usually set them to.

Now the bombshell: I measured the caster angle and it’s literally off the scale. It must be about 12 degrees. Assuming I have the wrong ARB a 12mm shorter one would reduce it to about 8 degrees. The consensus seems to that 3 degrees is about right. I think that would require about 29mm machining off the mounting face.

Something must be wrong but I can’t see what.

Could I have the wrong track control arms?
Paul

[Alan c]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

could the position of the U clamp parts on the chasis be too far forward - not done these before this is based on applied logic :-)

[milliemarlin]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

could the position of the U clamp parts on the chasis be too far forward - not done these before this is based on applied logic :-)

Hi Alan,
That was the conclusion I came to back in 2005 when I first put the car together. I have just measured from the TCA mounting bolt to the forward ARB mounting bolt. Not easy to measure very accurately but it is 260mm +/- 5.

Img_8624s.jpg

Img_8626s.jpg

I would be very grateful if someone could measure theirs.

I think my estimates in my last post were too simplistic. I have a suspicion that a 12mm shorter bar will fix the problem. I will take a longer look tonight.
Paul

[milliemarlin]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

For extra brownie points if someone with ARB that is not on the car could measure the height of the ARB shoulder as shown in post #6. I would be very very pleased!
Paul

[cabrioman]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

hi Paul

Well I just took a look at the ARB that was on my Hunter which is a 24mm bar and it is marked clear as day H18, so I think the post on the other forum regards different types of ARB maybe over simplified things.

There would appear to be lots of variants in the markings, H13,H14,H24,H28 all reported on the passion ford post and mine is definitely H18 so all in all as clear as mud.

It would be good to know in practice what the marking actually means, ie does it relate to the length of the shoulder and therefore the castor position.

Sadly I have no idea what the castor was running at with that bar fitted. I have compression struts on it at the moment but may switch back to my ARB. I guess milling the bar to increase the shoulder and then using spacing washers to dial in the castor could be an option.

Sorry if I am being thick but what is the measurement you were looking for, I have the ARB off the car.

John

[kahawi]

Re: Millie antiroll bar

Paul, this was my 'previous' ARB, some damage to the step and possibly bent, hence replacement. I've cleaned up both ends, and can see no visible markings at all! Best I can do to measure, as follows:-


ARB-Dim-2.jpg