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  • #1

    Sportster Owner Requires Help

    Can anyone help Cameron? I received an e-mail from him the other day but unfortunately can't really help with the questions and don't have time to go looking either with my car to prep for Easter.

    ...............

    I have a couple of questions which I hope you can help answer in regard to my ongoing Sportster build.

    Is there any truth in the rumour that copper fuel pipes will no longer be an accepted option in the IVA test – I have just installed mine?

    I am about to set up the pedal box and the clutch master cylinder. Is there anything stopping me fitting the master cylinder with the elbow and hose outlet facing downwards as this would make it easier to hook up and connect to the fluid reservoir bottle

    Mike supplied me with Wilwood callipers for my front brakes along with some inserts as they have to be widened to accommodate the vented discs. Unfortunately the quality is not good and I was wondering if you know of any alternative suppliers for the inserts?

    For the dashboard, I am considering both a carbon fibre and a leather trim finish. Could you tell me if the carbon fibre one fits directly to the aluminium dashboard ‘template’ or if there is anything else that goes in between them?


    Probably not the most challenging questions you have ever had but it would help me out if you could give me a steer.


    Cheers


    Cameron
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  • #2
    Re: Sportster Owner Requires Help

    Fuel lines - I've had a quick look on line, and all of the details I've found all seems to be rumours. I passed IVA back in 2010 with copper runs down the tunnel, but can't comment on later developments in the IVA specs. Best call VOSA on that one.

    Master cylinder - dunno, mine is rigged up in the 'upright' position with the ports facing skyward. I would have thougt that it would be OK, as the fluid will be drawn into the cylinder via the action of the piston once it's been bled.

    Dash - not having a Carbon dash, I can't comment - but my dash is leather cloth covered aluminum, and the aluminium blank was bonded to a plywood backer to aid rigidity and support (especially useful once you've cut big holes in it for the clocks). There's pics of the dashboard 'sandwich' on my website.

    Cheers

    Jason

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    • #3
      Re: Sportster Owner Requires Help

      Originally posted by greatoldone View Post
      Fuel lines - I've had a quick look on line, and all of the details I've found all seems to be rumours. I passed IVA back in 2010 with copper runs down the tunnel, but can't comment on later developments in the IVA specs. Best call VOSA on that one.

      Master cylinder - dunno, mine is rigged up in the 'upright' position with the ports facing skyward. I would have thougt that it would be OK, as the fluid will be drawn into the cylinder via the action of the piston once it's been bled.

      Dash - not having a Carbon dash, I can't comment - but my dash is leather cloth covered aluminum, and the aluminium blank was bonded to a plywood backer to aid rigidity and support (especially useful once you've cut big holes in it for the clocks). There's pics of the dashboard 'sandwich' on my website.

      Cheers

      Jason
      Copper fuel lines on kitcars have been acceptable to VOSA for many years but it is difficult to prove that copper pipes are acceptable because there is no recognised standard (I stand to be corrected if anyone knows any different)
      Therefore, I think it depends on when you plan to take your car for the IVA test.

      The IVA manual states......

      "Taking into account the type of fuel used, the fuel system, including the fuel tank, shall be so designed, constructed and fitted
      as to withstand the forces, vibration and corrosive environment to
      which it is likely to be subject."

      If in a few years time, when there is widespread use of E10 petrol (petrol with 10% Ethanol) then VOSA could argue that you need fuel tanks and fuel lines designed for E10 petrol.
      (Or you'll have to prove that your car is not designed for E10 petrol and I don't know how you would do that?)
      My personal view is that if you use some specifically designed fuel hose, such as Gates Barracade or Goodyear SAE 30R9 DIN 73379-3D Fuel Injection Hose, you won't have a problem as you can take a copy of the spec with you and tester hasn't even got to think about it. You are also building a car that will have no issues in the future.

      The carbon Fibre dashboard supplied by Marlin should be bonded to the aluminium dashboard blank with RTV Silicone sealant and it's best to bond it before you cut it to shape or drill any holes.



      Dash by marlinpeter, on Flickr

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      • #4
        Re: Sportster Owner Requires Help

        Great Gents, really appreciated!

        Will give VOSA a call and try and get them to come off the fence. Having just installed the Marlin supplied copper fuel lines I am a bit reluctant to rip them out and start again but I guess it would make sence to try and future proof the car.

        I have to say the carbon dashboard does look good but 'her indoors' is favouring the leather approach (no jokes please)! In the interest of self preservation and keeping her happy ahead of the next bill for parts I will pursue the leather clad version for now.

        Thanks again and keep you posted.

        Cheers

        Cameron

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        • #5
          Re: Sportster Owner Requires Help

          Is there a British Standard - sorry European standard - that applies to copper tubing? If so and the standard says suitable for fuel wouldn't that be acceptable? I know a lot of modern cars use nylon (I think its nylon) pipes - that might be a suitable substitute.
          I did a quick google and found that teh standad 8mm copper pipe has to conform to BS EN 1057

          "It is applicable to tubes having an outside diameter from 6 mm up to and including 267 mm for:

          • Distributing networks for hot water and cold water
          • Hot water heating systems, including panel heating systems (under-floor, wall, overhead)
          • Domestic gas and liquid fuel distribution"


          So its ok for kerosene surely? maybe a bit more digging needed?

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          • #6
            Re: Sportster Owner Requires Help

            Originally posted by cameronfurnival View Post
            Is there a British Standard - sorry European standard - that applies to copper tubing? If so and the standard says suitable for fuel wouldn't that be acceptable? I know a lot of modern cars use nylon (I think its nylon) pipes - that might be a suitable substitute.
            I did a quick google and found that teh standad 8mm copper pipe has to conform to BS EN 1057

            "It is applicable to tubes having an outside diameter from 6 mm up to and including 267 mm for:

            • Distributing networks for hot water and cold water
            • Hot water heating systems, including panel heating systems (under-floor, wall, overhead)
            • Domestic gas and liquid fuel distribution"


            So its ok for kerosene surely? maybe a bit more digging needed?
            Hi Cameron,
            this is exactly the problem. The copper pipe available is made to EN 1057 but that doesn't say its suitable for petrol and it certainly does not cover Ethanol.

            I'm not saying a newly built car fitted with copper fuel pipes will definitely fail the IVA but it is difficult to prove that the pipe meets the IVA requirement.
            When E10 is finally introduced in the UK (in 2015?) there will be a lot of press discussion and VOSA could decide to check fuel lines are compatible.
            Nylon could be an option but I've not researched that so can't comment.


            ...peter
            P.S. I doubt if VOSA will give an answer and probably refer anyone back to the requirement as written.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Sportster Owner Requires Help

              I wonder what material / spec is used in the chemical plant that is preparing and distributing ethanol? Peter.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Sportster Owner Requires Help

                Peter,
                we are going slightly off topic but if you want to read all the gory details you can have a look at the following report commissioned by the dft.

                http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/qinetiq-10-02471-assessing-fuel-system-compatability-with-bio-ethanol-and-risk-of-carburettor-icing/bioethanolstudyreport.pdf


                Page 22 and 23 has the list of compatible and non-compatible materials.

                enjoy.....

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