Members Map

[stevejgreen]

Re: Members Map

Hi Steve,
The big problem at the moment is to know who wants to be in and who’s out.

The web site you pointed to is “Phoogle! An interactive Google Maps mapping system” a vBulletin 3.6 add-in. The program was released: 09 Mar 2007 and the last update: 09 Apr 2007. The author’s last activity was in 2012. We are on a newer vBulletin version. Even if the application was a perfect fit for us I could not implement unsupported code. A good thought though.
Paul

So thats a NO on two counts, or should that be 6 counts.
Sounds to me that the Members map is going to die if it’s not already in the morgue.

[Cameron F]

Re: Members Map

I don't think anyone said no. The current map is a standalone product and credit should be given to Keith h for getting it going. It works by someone typing up a list of data to export and then uploading it. There is no provision to extract the data automatically from the membership database atm. So as long as someone is prepared to volunteer to collect, update, prune etc then of course the map can run. Because of privacy, we don't want a list of lovely classic marlins being available on the web so access us only granted to club members via the website or by direct URL so this also means that every time the map is updated it is on a new URL and so the website links also need updating. It's all simple but needs a body to do it... Each update used to take about an hour, I couldn't maintain the consistency when I did it and couldn't guarantee being able to give the time back then either.

[stevejgreen]

Re: Members Map

I don't think anyone said no. The current map is a standalone product and credit should be given to Keith h for getting it going. It works by someone typing up a list of data to export and then uploading it. There is no provision to extract the data automatically from the membership database atm. So as long as someone is prepared to volunteer to collect, update, prune etc then of course the map can run. Because of privacy, we don't want a list of lovely classic marlins being available on the web so access us only granted to club members via the website or by direct URL so this also means that every time the map is updated it is on a new URL and so the website links also need updating. It's all simple but needs a body to do it... Each update used to take about an hour, I couldn't maintain the consistency when I did it and couldn't guarantee being able to give the time back then either.

I was only offering a potential solution, you shot it down on six counts, and reading the above, it’s full of negativity.

I can understand a few of your points, but I have consistently argued that it’s update and content should be in the direct hands of each and every individual member, taking the responsibility away from a particular committee representative and putting it to the members.

If the members do not show sufficient enthusiasm to support the resource and the feature falls into disuse, the members themselves will be collectively at fault.

[cameronfurnival]

Re: Members Map

Steve, no negativity intended, (btw this user is Cameron, mocadmin is Paul) I was just pointing out that like most things that seem a good idea - and I agree that this one is - its not quite as simple. There is also no known way of letting each member update their info on any mapping system of which I am aware that will maintain the high level of security and integrity enjoyed by users of this site. just cant be done. Sorry to sound negative but its a fact. If of course you know different let me know as I am genuinely interested in making this a reality. PM me rather than having the debate on here until we find a solution?

[stevejgreen]

Re: Members Map

Steve, no negativity intended, (btw this user is Cameron, mocadmin is Paul) I was just pointing out that like most things that seem a good idea - and I agree that this one is - its not quite as simple. There is also no known way of letting each member update their info on any mapping system of which I am aware that will maintain the high level of security and integrity enjoyed by users of this site. just cant be done. Sorry to sound negative but its a fact. If of course you know different let me know as I am genuinely interested in making this a reality. PM me rather than having the debate on here until we find a solution?

I can see it's you, when you use a sensible username. Otherwise it's guesswork for most forum users. it seems several have alias accounts which disrupts the sequence of a thread.

There are several mapping solutions, a club to which I belong uses ZeeMaps a derivative of Google that lets individuals add and edit their marker and information.

That might meet the MOC members needs, it seems to work just fine, but it may not stand up to detailed scrutiny, that can be used as an excuse to not do anything, just in case something goes wrong.
Individuals should be responsible for their own actions.

I foresee the members map dying on its feet. Shame.

[cameronfurnival]

Re: Members Map

I haven't used zeemap, but something in the back of my mind tells me it wasn't what we wanted at the time. However, it may have moved on since then. If you wanted to, you could populate a test map Steve and we could all have a go with our own little tests to see if it works. A good collaborative experiment! Try it with 50 - 60 user names? Let us know when its done and we will all have a fiddle?

PS My username is not deliberate and is a throw back from when i was a moderator on here. My ordinary username doesnt work and I havent had the time to work out why or ask Paul to fix it. Maybe you have just given me a nudge.

[stevejgreen]

Re: Members Map

I have watched Zeemap work. I don’t need to populate a list to see that. Again.
I’ve helped implement it once, it works, why would I repeat the exercise?

If the MOC is going to worry about security, isn’t it the MOC’s job to decide if ithe software is robust and appropriate, Paul has already criticised my first offering. I might think it is perfectly robust, the powers that be might disagree, why should I waste my time and effort, populating a real database, because only real data proves the point, if it’s going to be turned down on a whim? After all Keithh was shot down for his preliminary stalwart effort, because of alleged security issues.

It seems to me that the MOC leading lights have no passion for the project otherwise an individual would have been ‘tasked’ to implement and maintain it years ago. Today the legacy of Keithh’s experiment is effectively wreckage.

I can guide you to a possible solution, that I think is suitable, and have seen working, but the Committee are never going to give me authority to implement it, even on a trial scale with real data, that can be updated by individual members.

I am not going to be the one to kill this project, I want to see Club Members in control of their data, but I am not convinced that there is an appetite for it within the committee and their advisers.

I will spend my time with Keepandshare, winter hours are coming, I have loads more stuff to scan, whether or not it meets MOC copyright standards, I know it will help many Roadster/Marina owners.

Someone else, with database skills might like to pick this up, there are a few members around, if I am reading the odd post correctly, but unless I attend an AGM, and get elected, is it ever going to happen for me? NO!

[keith_h]

Re: Members Map

Last July I offered in this thread to investigate the reality of setting up memberships for clubs. No one took me up on it so I went ahead and had a very interesting dialog with a member of the Data Protection Organisation. Before anyone has an apoplectic fit, no mention was made of the Marlin Owners Club.
I simply said I was wanting to set up a club of owners of a classic car and wanted to be sure that I set it up within the bounds of the Data Protection Act. The most interesting bit was the answer to my question about setting it up with an automatic “opt in” with the member having the right to then opt out. His answer was that was perfectly OK at the moment but the rules were going to change next year.

It is still my contention that it is a nonsense to set up a club of like minded folk and deny them the opportunity to get in touch with each other directly. If you join a club you do it because you want to interact..

I believe one approach to solving the issue is to publish a statement in Pitstop to the effect that on a given date we will be creating a members list (and updating the map). If anyone wants to be left off it they should let the membership secretary know by email or post no later than 2 weeks before the “go live” date. It should only be accessible by the membership who have opted in and, if possible, any member should be able to edit/delete their details at any time. Folks might find the following of interest:

24 May 2017

Case Reference Number ENQ0681252

Dear Mr Howell

Thank you for your email of 11 May 2017.thank you for getting back to me

I’ve tried contacting you on the number provided but have been unsuccessful.

My understanding is that you’re looking to set up a classic car members club and you wanted some guidance and advice about any data protection implications.

As long as you only collect and use the personal data of the members for the purpose it was obtained and you advise members of what you will do with their information and how you will secure it, you should be keeping within the principles of the Act.

The main principles here are principle one which says ‘Personal data shall be processed fairly and lawfully’ and principle two which states ‘Personal data shall be obtained only for one or more specified and lawful purposes, and shall not be further processed in any manner incompatible with that purpose or those purposes’.

Obviously all the principles are to be adhered to and the security of data (principle seven) is very important. You need to be clear and transparent about why you need the data and how you want to use it so any member will be able to see exactly what you’re doing with their information and why.

I would suggest having a look at all the principles on the website to familiarise yourself with your requirements as the data controller of the information you hold.

I hope this information is helpful to you. If you would like to discuss this case further please contact me on **********. If you need advice on a new issue you can contact us via our Helpline on 0303 123 1113 or through our live chat service. In addition, more information about the Information Commissioner’s Office and the legislation we oversee is available on our website at www.ico.org.uk.

Yours sincerely


***** ******
Case Officer
Information Commissioner’s Office
Tel ***********


The ICO's mission is to uphold information rights in the public interest. To find out more about our work please visit our website, or subscribe to our e-newsletter at ico.org.uk/newsletter.

If you are not the intended recipient of this email (and any attachment), please inform the sender by return email and destroy all copies without passing to any third parties.

If you'd like us to communicate with you in a particular way please do let us know, or for more information about things to consider when commu


Edited: to remove personal information, Paul

[lil_red_roadster]

Re: Members Map

GDPR (General Data Protection Regulations) becomes law next year, and these new rules (and associated penalties) are somewhat more onerous than hitherto, requiring a "double-opt-in" approach and must also include the "right to be forgotten".
"Soft" opt-in (i.e. implied consent) will no longer be tolerated.

Whilst you might argue that these rules are overkill in respect of a small car-club (a point I would agree with to some extent), the club will, nevertheless, need to be mindful of the law as the law makes no distinctions.

[stevejgreen]

Re: Members Map

GDPR (General Data Protection Regulations) becomes law next year, and these new rules (and associated penalties) are somewhat more onerous than hitherto, requiring a "double-opt-in" approach and must also include the "right to be forgotten".
"Soft" opt-in (i.e. implied consent) will no longer be tolerated.

Whilst you might argue that these rules are overkill in respect of a small car-club (a point I would agree with to some extent), the club will, nevertheless, need to be mindful of the law as the law makes no distinctions.

Thats the 25 May 2018 when it comes into force. The club membership database, and any other databases held by the club archive must be compliant by then, whether or not we have a Members Map, the data must be compliant.

It’s not a reason to not bother with the Members Map, it could still be implemented now if the members have the right to manage their own data directly, always my preferred option.

The Committee shoud take advice, just as Keithh did. If it’s decided to be too complex, to have a user controlled map, the incoming committee could cancel the Members Map at the 2018 AGM, which would be a shame.

The easy option is to opt out now!

[cameronfurnival]

Re: Members Map

Steve, no one is disagreeing with you. I guess we are waiting a volunteer to do the work.

[milliemarlin]

Re: Members Map

Thanks to Keith for taking the initiative and getting some real information for the club.

I’m very pleased to see that he has survived being allegedly shot down.

I think the club should have a statement about how we use people’s data. Currently we only use it for club to member communications, mostly about subscriptions and magazine delivery. We don’t give the information out to anybody without the owner’s permission. This is an item on my to-do list. I might ask members for their opinion but I haven’t been very happy with previous contributions to similar requests.

It is true that the easiest option from my point of view is to drop the map. But I am here to serve our members and if the members would like a map I will do my darndest to try and make one. But it is not currently my highest priority. It’s not an easy thing to do.

If a volunteer is in the mood to be tasked with setting up the map please let me know?

As a passionate supporter of the MOC I must be diligent in what I do for the club to be sure it is legal, secure and appropriate.

I can only re-iterate Keepandshare, has nothing to do with the MOC. Copyright standards are governed by outside organisations. Infringe them at your peril.

To all members I say again – You do not need to attend the AGM to be elected to any committee position. Contact a committee member using any method if you would like to volunteer.

Paul
To think I used to get paid quite well for consultancy work.

[Skittler]

Re: Members Map

I have been following this thread with interest and always wondered when GDPR would be mentioned.

I, for one, am quite happy to have my location on a members map but unfortunately in this modern electronic, and invariably insecure, world my 'happiness' is regulated by overarching legislation put in place to ensure my privacy is not comprimised by third parties.

As I understand any personal information eg. member location, collected by an association (club) which it is going to process (why collect it if it's not?) must have gained the individual's consent for that processing; further a record of that consent must be logged. In GDPR terminology the concent must be 'verifiable'.
GDPR also uses the term 'data processor' - someone who handles the received data.

Therefore I cannot see how an individual can update a member map themselves and be within the law.
The map is part of the club's processing, thus consent must be obtained and logged by the club!

I am by no means an expert in this but through my role in my 'signature' association I am striving to get our house in order by 25th May. This has involved re-wording and additional paragraphs inserted into documents, updating paper forms and web forms and in some cases not asking for previously obtained information.

There is also another consideration in that the information shall "not be kept for longer than is necessary". Another can or worms, particularly as GDPR brings paper documentation under the law!

[David]

Re: Members Map

Chipping in because my business is delivering security and compliance related communications and collaboration systems and a large part of my daily life at present is GDPR related.

In the context of GDPR most of the regs are for organizations greater than 250 employees but Article 9 does list exceptions where smaller organizations must comply. For example if you’re in health care.

I don’t think we really need to be too concerned about GDPR in the context of this club but we should plan to evolve current practices that fall under the Data Protection Act, as the ICO says it’s an evolution of the rules not wholesale change.

As for the map, I offered to help earlier in this thread so will do again, I’m able to handle the data processing side having designed database systems, I already use the mapping technology and do a certain amount of web software development.

So my hands up... who’s going to sign me up?
:-)

[burnside]

Re: Members Map

All I want to do is see locations of other like indeed people may be forum names are sufficient but let's get something done before my second foot ends up in the grave