help with Caster / Camber set up

[amalgamated users from prior forum]

Message originally posted by: Mike Timlett
Hi had a scan of old thread\'s but still looking for help regarding the caster and camber setup on my Cortina base Berlinetta . The car as it is doesn\'t self center and the tyres sound as if they are scrubbing. Looks like way to much camber and not enough caster as a result of chopping down the spring. Understand modified top arm with a Transit track rod has been done before , any details appreciated. Mike

[danny_nelson]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Consider starting by replacing the springs with a soft standard ford spring. These usually are of a smaller dia sect and have more coils. YKC sold bespoke items at one time. Pilgrim cars also had a standard spring in their Parts list for their Cortina based offerings. If you decide to go the adjustable route with the top Wishbone you will have to make a replacement top wishbone to suit.

[macdonald.dm]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Ok, I haven't had the privilege of actually building a Berli from scratch, so don't know what the recommended approach to the front suspension was meant to be, apart from, I believe, leaving out the front stabiliser (anti-roll?) bar.

Are the springs MEANT to be chopped down to compensate for the Berli's lighter weight? If so, I'd have thought that only the very minimum should need to be trimmed off in order for the suspension to sit at the previous height - ie: with the steering track-rod arms sitting horizontally under normal load.

If the suspension is sitting like this - horizontal track rods - I'd have thought the suspension geometry would remain pretty much unchanged from original.

Of course, cutting the original springs will effectively make them MORE stiff, which I'd have thought would not be desirable in a Berli (it's pretty bludy stiff enough as it is...). Danny's suggestion of softer springs makes a lot of sense.

You can compensate a bit for hard suspension by fitting higher profile tyres, and this will have additional benefits in both helping to fill the wheel arches (!) and raise the ground clearance. However, if your steering geometry is out to begin with, this clearly needs tackling first.

This is me just thinking aloud...

[muckles.19]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Hi and thanks , The original build book says cut off two complete turns of the front springs ( not the rear ) looks like the front crossmember is slung lower = as the pivot point length of the top and lower arms are different the STD geometry goes out of the window . with so many Berlis on the road there must be an answer to the problem . as it is the handling is rubbish .
Mike

[csjcarolyn]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Many of us have had these problems.

Caster, this is set by the original manufacturer and using the standard Ford cross member is not adjustable but is altered by the new set up. I obtained the shorter springs from YKC [Don is still active on his original web site address] and fitted all new suspension bushes. at the same time I also bought from Don a pair of adjustable suspension top arms which allows you to adjust Camber. There are problems with this adjustable arm in that on full bump the arm fouls the top of the crosss member but there is adjustment to obtain the correct Camber set up - just.

Adjust the camber so the wheel tilts outwards at the top by 4mm - not easy to achieve and will take several attempts and patience.

Regarding your tyre scrub - have you also checked wheel base?

Must go she is calling but keep trying it is worth it in the end.

Roger

[danny_nelson]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

This is what Kit cars is all about, there are different ways to solve problems, different opinions, and so forth. The build manual stated cut two complete turns off. This worked fine for some it was all dependant on what rate of springs you started with. There are many. So what worked for some did not for others. There was an article in Pitstop in 1995. Len Ball a Berlinetta owner in Northern Ireland was not happy with front or rear suspension. His solutionwas to purchase from Pilgrim cars a set of 160lb road springs as used on their Family Tourer model. The rears were fitted as supplied the fronts trimmed to a free length of 11.5 inches cut across to present fairly flat top to seat. This raised the car by 2 inches front and back from what it was before and achieved the objective of restoring the wishbone to the horizontal position, so giving a normal amount of negative camber. Another member elongated the holes which mount the wishbone, and kept going letting the wishbone move outwards when he was happy with camber he then welded washers in place as relocating holes in their new position. There is a Berlinetta with the Ford wishbones discarded and new top and bottom wishbones fabricated with coil over adjustables. YKC supplied a spring which required no alterations. The Berlinetta was early days, and was offered in Sierra based form with adjustable front suspension the same as the cabrio front end so it was developed. You could try Pilgrim cars and see if the have a set of springs knocking about You could talk to Don Burt, You could try and get Steve Himsworth tel no from Aquilla. He may be able to help. But at the end of the day you have to do what you consider the answer to be. Good Luck.

[muckles.19]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Thanks for your help , Hope you don't think i was looking for instant solutions out of a box to problems . Its helpful to hear other people's ideas and experiences . I have almost rebuilt the car since i got it, it was just the handling letting it down i recon its been that way ever since its SVA amazingly after some more experimenting with tracking and fitting new joints and poly bushes all round it handles remarkably well . Engine / steering / brakes / exhaust now sorted just a new { kit car ) loom to fit and repaint and it will be sorted for a little while and hopefully get some summer driving in if the whether holds out for a bit longer . Thanks again. mike

[macdonald.dm]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

I'm a bit confused by all this!

On my Berli - and I'm guessing it's pretty standard - the complete Cortina front cross-member is fitted as a single, and what looks unchanged, unit.

This would obviously mean the front would ride too high on the original springs simply due to the Berli's lighter weight. The springs are therefore cut down to compensate.

If this is done - and the steering arms are returned to their horizontal level - surely the castor/camber and everything else remains as it was originally? The only thing that changes is the stiffness of the suspension?

What am I missing?!

[philcoyle]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Donnie, only one thing! the thickness of the steel used for the spring. The springy bit remains the same no matter how much you cut off, a trialing friend of mine used to spend hours grinding down the springs to a suitable thickness to reduce the spring tension to suit what ever conditions he was going to face, a bit extreme I know, but unless you can source thinner steel coils, you still have the problem.

[macdonald.dm]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Thanks Phil.

Yes, I understand that the spring's effective stiffness is increase for two reasons; shorter length and lighter car weight.

What I don't understand from the posts above is how this could affect the suspension's castor or camber angles.

If the suspension is sitting at the same height as it was in the donor car - and after chopping the springs it should be - then the actual suspension geometry should remain the same.

Ie: I don't actually understand the problem Mike Timlett is having, but would like to!

[Dane_Rescueman]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Donnie, my Berli was built in 1988 as per the manual. The idea, it seems, was to not only allow for the reduced weight but to lower the ride height. This caused the Ford upper wishbone to be raised up. The Cortina suspension seems to have been designed to have a large negative camber increase when in a dive state. My Berli had huge negative camber when built as per the book. I was lucky enough to buy some front springs and upper adjustable wishbones from YKC before they closed. With a bit of adjustment my wheels are now vertical when at rest. I still get enough neg camber under dive/compression. I have set my toe in to about 2 to 3 mm in. At the moments all seems OK.
Hope this helps!
(Hopefully Danny will put me straight if I have got the wrong end of the stick!)
Picture is without the weight of the engine !!!!

[Dane_Rescueman]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Sorry Donnie. My image was too big. I'll try again!

[macdonald.dm]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Very interesting, Dane - thank you.

I'd have thought that the spring needed cutting only because the suspension would otherwise sit higher than in the donor due to the Berli's lower weight.

Ie: If you installed the complete unmodified Cortina front cross-member straight into the Berli, then the springs would be more extended than in the Cortina due to the lower weight on them. Under 'level' driving conditions, the steering arms would still be tilting slightly upwards towards the hubs instead of being horizontal (leading to bump steer), and the suspension geometry would be the same as a Cortina when it flies over the top of a hill - slightly 'extended'.

Neither is desirable.

I just can't see why it needs more than simply chopping a little off of the springs - this would lower the suspension, and bring it all to the same 'flat' settings as it was in the Cortina - ie: horizontal steering arms, and Cortina-like geometry.

Dane, when sitting level, are the steering arms on your Berli horizontal?

(Sorry to be thick...)

[Dane_Rescueman]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

Yup. They are about horizontal.
I notice that BURTON supply front cortina springs in Normal, -1" and -2" heights. Worth a try?

[macdonald.dm]

Re: help with Caster / Camber set up

I've been trying to explore possible solutions for this age-old problem for some TF Henley owners in the NG club, who's cars have the same Cortina front end as Berlis.

A company that was mentioned by other kit owners was www.dampertech.co.uk , who make all sorts of replacement springs, shock, coil-overs for many cars.

I emailed them to ask if they had a Cortina Mk3 adjustable coil-over-shock replacement, with softer than original springs, and the answer was "yes, but best give us a call to run through a few details".

This could possibly be an ideal solution - an all-in adjustable unit which would replace the current shock?

He left me a contact name and number: Dave 01709 703992 or 07973 382199