Mot Woes

[chris_cussen]

Re: Mot Woes

Passed.

Note for anyone else: Mark Vickers at VOSA seems to be the authority on kit cars, if in doubt get the tester to contact him.

[Peterx]

Re: Mot Woes

Millie passed her SVA in 2005 based on a 1985 F registration Sierra. She has an F reg. I have since replaced the engine with a 2005 2L Zetec. I have had to argue my case with MOT testers who think that because she is “first registered 2005” or because the engine is 2005 that she should meet 2005 emissions. They are wrong! The emissions relate to the age of the car 1985. I guess that this is because it is too difficult to change the tax you pay if you were to fit a less polluting engine. Some kit car owners use Zetec engines with carburettors and no cats.
I now speak to the tester before he starts so he can RTFM before establishing an entrenched position. I understand there is a helpline for the tester to get clarification or was it a victim of the cuts?
I am pleased to report Millie passed her MOT a couple of days ago.
Paul

Hi Paul,
I was surprised to see your post as this appears to be contrary to every I've read in the last few years. My understanding (and I'm prepared to be corrected) is that the emission requirements are always based on the age of the engine, not the date of registration of the kitcar or the age of the donor car.
Often the engine fitted is from the donor car, so the same age but my understanding is that if you change your engine or fit an engine from another car you have to establish the date of the engine manufacture to meet the required emmisions standard. Both Ford and BMW will supply deatils of date of manufacture if you supply them them with an engine number.

Glad to hear you got your pass without any difficulties,

cheers, peter

[Mike]

Re: Mot Woes

Hi Paul,
I was surprised to see your post as this appears to be contrary to every I've read in the last few years. My understanding (and I'm prepared to be corrected) is that the emission requirements are always based on the age of the engine, not the date of registration of the kitcar or the age of the donor car.
Often the engine fitted is from the donor car, so the same age but my understanding is that if you change your engine or fit an engine from another car you have to establish the date of the engine manufacture to meet the required emmisions standard. Both Ford and BMW will supply deatils of date of manufacture if you supply them them with an engine number.

Glad to hear you got your pass without any difficulties,

cheers, peter

I'm with Peter on this one. Everything I've read says the emissions are based on the AGE of the ENGINE. If you fit a newer engine you have to meet the emissions applicable at the time. I think you have been lucky to get away with it.
Mike

[cameronfurnival]

Re: Mot Woes

if fitting a post '92 engine then it should have a cat fitted iirc. That should ensure emissions compliance shouldnt it? The dodgy area is in younger cars with older engines and as I'm fitting a 1990 2.0 DOHC ford in mine I'm hoping I wont fall foul of anything in the future (assuming that by the time I get the blessed thing on the road we will still be allowed amateur-built/modified cars!) so I got in touch with Ford in Walsall and they sent me a letter confirming the engines date of manufacture and stating.."In all probability this engine was never fitted with a cat" so Im hoping that will suffice - fingers crossed!

[Mike]

Re: Mot Woes

if fitting a post '92 engine then it should have a cat fitted iirc. That should ensure emissions compliance shouldnt it? The dodgy area is in younger cars with older engines and as I'm fitting a 1990 2.0 DOHC ford in mine I'm hoping I wont fall foul of anything in the future (assuming that by the time I get the blessed thing on the road we will still be allowed amateur-built/modified cars!) so I got in touch with Ford in Walsall and they sent me a letter confirming the engines date of manufacture and stating.."In all probability this engine was never fitted with a cat" so Im hoping that will suffice - fingers crossed!

Cameron

I don't think you need to cross your fingers - unless it is that the rules don't change before we get our cars through the current IVA test!
The rules are quite clear: the emissions are are based on the age of the engine, and as long as you can prove it, which you already have done with a letter from Ford, then as yours is pre August '95 you will not require a cat. This applies to all engines up to August '95 (even if they were fitted with a cat before that date - my BMW M50 engine is from a '93 donor, which was fitted with a cat, but VOSA have confirmed it will not require a cat as the engine will be tested according to its age - ie pre August '95 - for IVA purposes, and its V5 will be marked accordingly, for future MOT emission tests).

Mike

[chris_cussen]

Re: Mot Woes

As a note the MOT manual states that if the engine has been changed the tests applied should be that of whichever is the older car or engine, though the onus is on the owner to demonstrate to the tester the age of the engine. This does not just apply to kit cars but any car. Therefore provided your engine pre-dates the requirement to have a CAT then the tests applied should be for an non-CAT engine.

[Peterx]

Re: Mot Woes

As a note the MOT manual states that if the engine has been changed the tests applied should be that of whichever is the older car or engine, though the onus is on the owner to demonstrate to the tester the age of the engine. This does not just apply to kit cars but any car. Therefore provided your engine pre-dates the requirement to have a CAT then the tests applied should be for an non-CAT engine.

Chris,
that is exactly how I read the situation, which is why I was surprised to see Paul's post.
But I can see how the poor MOT man gets confused with kit cars bearing age related plates. My own car was finished and registered in 2008 so the age of the car is 2008.
But it bears an 1989 'F - reg' age related plate because it was built from a single donor car. I guess 99.9% of (ordinary) cars submitted to the MOT stations have reg plates that match the year of registration so I can understand why your local friendly MOT man is a bit confused when confronted with a 'F-reg' kitcar but registered in 2008. Especially when many age related plated kitcars get tested to the year of the donor because they have the original engine from the donor car.

What I hadn't spotted before is that 'Q plate' cars can have any age engine and still be tested as pre 1975 :smile:. An interesting loop hole....


...peter

[Dane_Rescueman]

Re: Mot Woes

yes peter, that is a nice loophole. I have a Q reg car built around a 1976 Cortina III. I now have a nice EFi engine in her but I still only have a smoke test! I always ask for an emission test though to make sure the kit is working correctly but the results which are fine do not get entered on the computer system. Roll on the next engine!!!

[cameronfurnival]

Re: Mot Woes

Q plates are rare nowadays - maybe even a bit exclusive - I want one

[chris_cussen]

Re: Mot Woes

Cameron, Q plates can easily be arranged, its the default setting for Bristol DVLA

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mot Woes

Hi Peter,
I think there are two situations. First is when the car is SVA’d. You need to prove the age of the engine either because it has the serial number of the donor or by a letter from the manufacturer. This engine age is used to set the emissions and tax disc for the car.
If you subsequently change the engine the emissions test stays the same. Normally you would fit a newer engine with the ability to have lower emissions. Millie’s Zetec could have been fitted with quad carbs and no cat she would still pass her MOT. I thought I would try to be green and have injection and a cat. When I eventually get the ECU set up correctly she should be as good as a 2005 car. It would be nice if they reduced my tax disc to suite.
I am not an expert so treat this with caution.
Paul

[Peterx]

Re: Mot Woes

Hi Peter,
I think there are two situations. First is when the car is SVA’d. You need to prove the age of the engine either because it has the serial number of the donor or by a letter from the manufacturer. This engine age is used to set the emissions and tax disc for the car.
If you subsequently change the engine the emissions test stays the same. Normally you would fit a newer engine with the ability to have lower emissions. Millie’s Zetec could have been fitted with quad carbs and no cat she would still pass her MOT. I thought I would try to be green and have injection and a cat. When I eventually get the ECU set up correctly she should be as good as a 2005 car. It would be nice if they reduced my tax disc to suite.
I am not an expert so treat this with caution.
Paul

Hi Paul,

I'm not an expert either but I can't find anything in the current MOT manual that supports you view. Can you find the relevant paragraph that states that the emissions test stays the same if you change your engine? Unless maybe your car has Q plates?

thanks, Peter

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mot Woes

Hello Peter,
You are correct; I phrased my append badly. The emissions test stays the same if the engine is newer as in Millie’s case. But according to Chris Cussen’s append if the engine is older the older tests will apply.
Paul

[chris_cussen]

Re: Mot Woes

Yes, the test appies to the oldest of the engine or the car.

However if you have a car first registered in 2009, but given, for the sake or argument, a 'G' registration then if you have a 1990 engine you will get a 1990 emissions test. However if you subsquently change the engine to,say a modern Zetec, which test should be applied then?
Because the oldest (by build date) would still be the engine, but if its a modern Zetec running on carbs its going to fail the emissions test for the year of manufacture of the engine. Its a nightmare.

Now your V5 logbook should show the emissions (not that mine did) but if you get the book modified to show the older emissions then that can be shown to the MOT tester if they query the level. Of course what happens when you legally change the engine may affect the emissions part of the log book, but may not!

And of course leagally changing the engine is non-trivial as you have to prove you acquired it legally, and that according to an engineer it has been fitted in a safe and proper manner.