The future of Marlin Info

[Alan c]

Just reading some of the detailed responses to some of the recent posts coming from people who have a long history and big knowledge base I thought to myself what happens in the future when those with that history meet with the Great Marlin Maker in the Sky (not soon I hope). So I looked at how far the posts went back, looks like 2004 so assume that is when the site started (so looks like we have a good on going rolling archive). I then had a little try of the search engine which is very inclusive which is good and bad in that I got several hundred posts when I put in work "windscreen" still if you need to know something then you will hunt for it.

Would seem we have it covered then - so now getting back on with my paid day job.

Just thinking out loud (sorry Cameron that I thought it would be otherwise)

[cameronfurnival]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

haha thanks Alan. The search engine isnt fabuluous I agree but the software for the forum was very cheap - sometimes you may find you go to google and get directed back to the site There is an advanced search feature which helps too. But you are absolutely right the archive here is fabulous - and not just for Marlins either. We get loads of hits from people looking to find out about repairing their 70s and 80s cars.

[stevejgreen]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

haha thanks Alan. The search engine isnt fabuluous I agree but the software for the forum was very cheap - sometimes you may find you go to google and get directed back to the site There is an advanced search feature which helps too. But you are absolutely right the archive here is fabulous - and not just for Marlins either. We get loads of hits from people looking to find out about repairing their 70s and 80s cars.

Have to agree, the search engine is not fabulous, but exceptionally better than the old forum format.
But as we all get older, the need and expectation, certainly for new owners, is that information is immediately available, not to be hunted down piecemeal.

The survival of the older Marlin cars, depends on the availability of spare parts and data. The MOC has little control over parts, but we are in control of data, especially build manuals etc.

Since the vast majority of Roadsters and Berlinettas have already been built, and the remainder will struggle to get through an IVA if at all possible, I wonder what the real value of restricting documentation, supplied at a cost as club goods, might be.

Can anyone specify the financial benefit to Club Funds per annum when balanced, against new members, who will be the future of the MOC? It is their needs that must be recognised, otherwise, the natural attrition through age, of the existing membership, and hence knowledge, will be the demise of the club. The more we can document and make freely available the better.

My opinion is that restricting access to data, however minimal, will only result in the majority of older cars being condemned to the scrap heap.

[Alan c]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

I am not enough of a Marlin expert to comment on manual release but the search engine could be helped, I suspect, if those posting used the Tags function - however my experience of automation tools is that wont happen if its an option it has to be a forced requirement before a post can be made. Maybe a future update of the site could add some mandatory criteria for tagging through a one choice tick box e.g. is the post: technical, chat, design solution, material sources, parts data, historical info, event, sales, etc. (I know some posts morph)

Must get off now and see what other things I can keep Cameron busy with!!!

[Alan B Gloucester]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

I for one feel that if you require info ,then joining a club where others can help has got to be favourable to working in the dark. Not to mention the fact insurance comes in a lot cheaper if you are a member. I shall be for years to come.

[cameronfurnival]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

I take these points all very well made. Of course, any member can post any document on here for all to see - if they are unable to do so for technical reasons then I will happily scan and digitise whatever you have. We had a big chat at stoneleigh last year about his (out of the tent) and we are actively looking into the possibility of loading on some docs which are subject to copyright - we are trying to get copyright permissions! As anyone who keeps such docs will know this can be a bit of a minefield to get it right and not leave a club liable for any breach. The idea of taggin posts is of course the correct approach (and can be done already on here) but we felt that it might make people reluctant to post. Am open to suggestions here... will take what AlanC says and have a think.
ANd yes ALan G you are right - where else do you get such value for money! £15 I pay that each half term for one of my kids to go to scouts and learn how to whittle.

[stevejgreen]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

I take these points all very well made. Of course, any member can post any document on here for all to see - if they are unable to do so for technical reasons then I will happily scan and digitise whatever you have. We had a big chat at stoneleigh last year about his (out of the tent) and we are actively looking into the possibility of loading on some docs which are subject to copyright - we are trying to get copyright permissions! As anyone who keeps such docs will know this can be a bit of a minefield to get it right and not leave a club liable for any breach. The idea of taggin posts is of course the correct approach (and can be done already on here) but we felt that it might make people reluctant to post. Am open to suggestions here... will take what AlanC says and have a think.
ANd yes ALan G you are right - where else do you get such value for money! £15 I pay that each half term for one of my kids to go to scouts and learn how to whittle.

All very well except that a post of mine containing an extract from Pitstop was redacted, allegedly on the grounds that it contained information available from Club Goods and therefore copyright.

This is apart from the fact that the complainant had not looked at the link I provided, so was completely unaware of the complete content, and it was regarding what I considered a safety issue of Roadster bulkheads splitting, when a new member it was directed to, was completely unaware of the problem.

I have grave concerns, when copyright law is used to prevent the publication of safety information.

Interesting that a 'chat, out of the tent' obviously of significant interest to those attending, did not reach the AGM or the subsequent Committee Meeting. It can't have been that important.

Of course, the MOC has no control whatsoever over the personal exchange of documents, copyright or not, via email or PM or any other means.

Finally to be a little picky a new membership is not £15.00, only a renewal is. Can we pay by PayPal?

[David]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

I use Google to search the site, as follows, type the following into Google search;

site:marlinownersclub.com windscreen

This will bring the full force of Google's prior indexing of the site to you, you may get a result where the local search would not if you expand on this syntax using additional Google search instructions.

Try two search words, phrases etc.

[lynnx22]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

Hi All,

As a very recent member of the Club I have many thoughts to share !
As DC may remember, I work abroad and more time on my hands than I need so I have been exploring the site and following links etc.
The first thing I discovered is that this may be the "friendly" club when we meet but as usual, on the internet, a darker side is VERY evident (que "this is the winter of my discontent" etc)
I suspect, but have no proof, that the membership of this Club is largely made up of older people like myself who have either kept their cars from build or have returned after a period of ........ normality(sic)
If I,m right then the Club is sadly doomed to loose relevance anyway as the membership with older cars shrinks.
Times are changing my friends, and the number of people prepared to get their hand dirty is getting smaller - I know this as a professional Aircraft Engineer. (average age 48)
My son (age 30) looked at the Marlin and said" you know you can buy a Fiesta for £350 don,t you Dad?......and THATS got a roof!"
I,d already bought, rebuilt and sold mine my that age.

As to copyright.
I,m no expert but I thought that copyright existed to prevent the "profit from other peoples work" sort of thing.
Could the Marlin Owners Club simply not have an archive that consists of links?
Thats all the internet is and no one seems to care much about copyright on there.
My car has a Kent 1300.
There is an INCREDIBLE amount of internet information about this engine.....the Club has very little and why should it?

AND finally, before you all doze off ;
STEVE the jiver etc.
You are right ..I looked at your site...nothing particularly relevent to me so I left.
Don,t take it personally.

Regards,

Tim

[lynnx22]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

Hi All.
So thats ...like it?
Nobody has ANY thoughts on where we should go concerning links, copyright, and archives?
I,m extremely new here......but I don.t need instruction on how to fit a windscreen or what company sells Triumph running gear bushes really cheap.
That all comes under "common sense" in my opinion.
Steve J and I have had a "full and frank " discussion as to what might be interesting information or not,
but I think he and I might at least agree that the Club needs an archive base that any one can access for information.
Any comments?

[stevejgreen]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

Since I have been referenced twice, I would like to confirm my true identity, so as to avoid confusion. I am Steve J Green, my username on this forum is stevejgreen and my email address is [email protected] though those who know me will occasionally see my ghost email [email protected]. I have little influence over the use of either, it seems to be determined by BT. In other places I am known as jiversteve, if you know me, you would know the reason why.

Partly because the 'chat out of the tent' has not been expanded upon or appear in minutes, I decided to add my thoughts, especially as they have been paraphrased earlier. If this goes on too long for you to bother to read, at least read the last paragraph.

This thread is titled 'The future of Marlin info' but it is inextricably linked to 'The future of the MOC' the moment you require membership to the club to access archive documents in a Members only area. So here are my thoughts in writing.

I frequently use the analogy of a Public Library, you can walk in read a book and leave, but if you want to take the book out, you must join, even the availability of magazines on the newsagents rack are the same, you can stand there and read, but you have to pay to take it home. I believe that the MOC could adopt a similar approach, store archive documents in a read only format, so that a visitor can 'try before they buy', but then join the club if they want to keep the document as part of their own archive. It's rather like using an eReader, but most of the older generation prefer a hardback version.
I know membership is comparatively cheap, if you want to use that argument, then how expensive should it be? But those who joined before Paypal was an option, had to use the old fashioned methods which can't have been easy, hand writing each bank paying in slip, increasing the load on the Mem Sec and Treasurer. I suspect the new system is far less onerous.

But I digress, I believe that he future of the MOC is two fold, firstly how to attract new members, and secondly how to retain those members who have joined.
I clearly believe that information is the key here. It is paramount that search engines work, so that the information, such as is available, can be found. The younger generation live in the now, and expect immediate access, for them, waiting a week is like a year, if they don't find what they are looking for, they won't stick around for long, but they are the future of the MOC.
That leads on to my second point of retaining members, and that relies on continual maintenance. Back in February 2015, in regards to Technical Reps, the Committee 'proposed that when the current position holders end their appointments the position will cease to exist, 'believing that the forum was recognised as the place to ask and answer questions'. All too often questions go unanswered, I think perhaps because some think the question is too banal, and the answer is already available. Incidentally here, DC's Pitstop index is a revelation, if you are a club member! Clearly from the subject line of this thread, and the admitted problems of the search engine, the forum is not good enough, especially when information is retained in peoples heads and not accessible in written form.

To return to Technical Reps issue, according to Pitstop (Issues 186 to 191) the club has 70 new members in the past year bringing the total to 490 (excluding wives and partners). 25% of the new members can be identified as Marina Roadster owners, yet there is no official Marina Roadster Technical Rep, gradually that number of owners without a Technical Rep will increase. My conjecture is that without proper support, new members will stick around for a year then drift away But with shared documentation, information and experience, they may become available as the Technical Rep of tomorrow.

The real future of the MOC is however in keeping as many Marlin Cars roadworthy as possible. In the old days the guys at the local parts dealer would know the part number of your requested item, today they ask, 'what is the registration number of your car' useless on a Q plate. All that intrinsic knowledge, stored in peoples heads has gone as they have retired or moved on. Written documentation, in whatever form, will be their only lasting legacy, and that, in a nutshell, is the dilemma the MOC faces.

[keith_h]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

My opinion is that restricting access to data, however minimal, will only result in the majority of older cars being condemned to the scrap heap.

Crikey bobs Steve, have you shot yourself in the the foot or is this not the same Steve who insists that he control who can access the data he has collected by using keep&share. Unless you have specifically instructed the executors of your will on how to release all the files you have collected then the quote elsewhere of data and knowledge going to the grave is never so true.

If you insist on the status quo then, if you have not already arranged it, can I respectfully recommend that you get the Mem. Sec. to include a pointer to your stuff in the bumph that gets sent out to new members

[lynnx22]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

I think that the club could do with 2 digital archives.

One that is free knowledge to who ever visits the site, and consists primarily of links to useful knowledge.
Any restriction to freely available internet knowledge is a waste of time and control, and will only put the casual visitor off.
Maybe once they have visited they will stay?

I would say that the MOC numbers roughly equal the number of cars so worrying about "increasing" that number is fairly futile unless the archive is of use to non Marlin owners.

The other archive, a Members Only site that contains information that the club has the copywrite to, much like "Pitstop".

This would negate any possible lawsuits.

I own a Kent engine Triumph based roadster.
All information about spares apart from the fibreglass can be found free and online.
Why should you pay to discover that Rimmers, Canley and Burtons could just about make you a new car ?

I.ll be honest, I joined the club for information about MY cars history, not because I wanted to join a car club, or needed information about the mechanics.
Such information that the club had was freely given, so I joined to show my thanks.

The "Pitstop" and build manuals were very interesting ..... a bonus if you like, and I think its quite right that I pay for the privilige of reading those.
But, only because the club owns them.

[stevejgreen]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

Crikey bobs Steve, have you shot yourself in the the foot or is this not the same Steve who insists that he control who can access the data he has collected by using keep&share. Unless you have specifically instructed the executors of your will on how to release all the files you have collected then the quote elsewhere of data and knowledge going to the grave is never so true.

If you insist on the status quo then, if you have not already arranged it, can I respectfully recommend that you get the Mem. Sec. to include a pointer to your stuff in the bumph that gets sent out to new members

I would have put this in a Private Message, but since Keiths mailbox is full, it's here instead.

Interesting that you had to go back quite a few posts to find that quote.

There is no secret that my archive is stored at Keepandshare, but I wonder by what right you personally, can criticise what I do with my personal archive, and with whom, and how, I decide to share knowledge, and why some is public, some private and some invisible to the casual viewer. It really has nothing to do with you.
Similarly the future of my personal archive and its final resting place is entirely mine, most of the paper record is with the current keeper of my car, in all probability, if nothing changes, they will become keeper of Keepandshare too.
Keepandshare allows me access to my archive from mobile devices anywhere in the world that I have an Internet connection, I do not have to carry a laptop or paper record with me.
Ultimately the Internet is not for ever, even the MOC has 'lost' some large files, specifically some issues of Pitstop from 1986 but there may be others. Hopefully a backup exists. (I have notified Cameron)

My archive contains documents that I and colleagues have written, documents that I have purchased and scanned, documents I have downloaded from the Internet etc. all voluntarily, giving my time freely, unpaid, and uploaded to keepandshare, a services for which I pay. How can that offend anyone, or are you deliberately trying to take offence? Perhaps you could enlighten me?

What we were discussing here is what the MOC could be doing to improve access to information, and by extension, the archive that the MOC retain, presumably for the benefit of the members. Should that archive be more openly available or free to read?

Since it was a chat (out of the tent) at Stoneleigh, presumably you were part of the discussion, you seem to feel strongly about it. Please share your thoughts about MOC copyright documents rather than just criticise.

If you want to reply personally, please empty your message box and do so via PM.

[keith_h]

Re: The future of Marlin Info

Hello Steve, it was not my intention to be abusive or critical and I obviously hit a raw nerve with no intention of doing so. If I upset you then I apologise. I am afraid my cartooning skills, which were never particularly brilliant, would have seen me with a large tongue in my cheek when I typed the above. It is a bit like when you blow the horn on the car - the person who hears it has no way of knowing what the intended sentiment is behind it and can draw a totally wrong conclusion dependent on the mood of the moment.

Anyway Steve, as I said I am sorry for the upset I caused you (and as far as I can remember (which sadly is not far these days, I haven't been involved in any discussions about data storage with anyone)

Keith