Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

[stevepritch]

Dear All

Something you may or may not be aware of. A survey which may influence the future of our cars. I have submitted response, please submit yours to so those undertaking the survey realise we exist. There ia a response form to complete on line or to mail to [email protected]

[burnside]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

Interesting to see that cars currently in build may have extreme difficulties passing emissions within future IVA tests should this legislation be passed

Its hardly a consultation document as its final date is within one month and implementation this year ,So i think its more of a directive on what will happen no matter what .

Its interesting to see the NSRA and other organisations have taken a strong standing in opposing the planned legislation

May be we should do likewise.

I have already put pen to paper this afternoon as I feel this will threaten the future of Kit, Hot rod and Classic cars .

[b_caswell]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

I suppose we all have to accept that sooner or later we need fresh air to breath!

but for those concerned here is the link https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety

Kit cars this is an extraction from the 63 page document referring to kit cars
4.10 Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet WLTP, given that at present they are not required to meet NEDC or the latest EU standards. Instead they are tested to age-appropriate MOT standards, on the basis of the date of manufacture or first use of the engine.
4.11 We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older engine. In other words the current relaxation for emissions according to the age of the engine will no longer apply.
4.12 Reconstructed (restored) classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet the latest MOT standards, as long as the appearance of the vehicle is broadly unchanged and the engine is of the same capacity as that supplied with the vehicle when it was new.
4.13 When new vehicles were first required to be fitted with catalytic converters around 1992 (Euro 1 emissions standard), kit car makers typically used older engines which were not fitted with catalytic converters, hence the justification for age-appropriate testing of emissions based on date of engine manufacture or first use. The majority of the fleet is now vehicles up to 25 years old whose engines are fitted with catalytic converters, providing plenty of choice to the kit car builder

[burnside]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

My interpretation of para 4.11 is that if you have a car in build using for example a 2005 BMW engine you will be subjected to 2018 emission regulations
When the car has its IVA test making it more difficult to pass
an almost impossible task on earlier 4 pot engines to get down to 2018 emission test levels
correct mw if I am wrong

[leadfoot]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

Burnside- That's roughly how I read it.
Maybe, if some one can cut through the "legaleese" and provide some examples in layman's terms to clarify what it all means and how we are personally affected..?

[burnside]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

http://www.nsra.org.uk/2018/02/action-required-dft-improving-air-quality-and-safety-consultation/

The NSRA seem to have got an understanding of the legislation and its effect plus have posted a standard letter to enable lobby of Govt representatives its worth a look link as above

[dave_clutterbuck]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

My interpretation of para 4.11 is that if you have a car in build using for example a 2005 BMW engine you will be subjected to 2018 emission regulations
When the car has its IVA test making it more difficult to pass
an almost impossible task on earlier 4 pot engines to get down to 2018 emission test levels
correct mw if I am wrong

That's how I read it, my Hunter is 1997 due to older engine it is not currently subject to emissions test.
It will be subject to 1997 emission test level, I presume I may need a catayltic converter then or I may be OK if it passes
At the last MOT mine was emission tested as a non catalyst vehicle, it passed OK

[burgoyne 69]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

So a kit car registered with a pinto engine in in 1989,would be okay provided the kit car could pass an emissions test that say 1989 Cortina could pass with the same engine, but a newer kit car with an older engine would have real problems.

Is this correct or have I read it wrong ?

[b_caswell]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-road-vehicles.

Takes a bit of reading and dates all over the place but:-

The gist of the above is any kit car used before 1.8.98 will be treated under the same rules as vehicles used before 1.8.75 for these cars there is no scheduled requirement
but the rule was/is visual.

[milliemarlin]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

I feel like my work of the last 13 years on Mark II is going to be scrapped on the altar of commercial interest! Doh! Double Doh! (24 stronger expletives deleted)

I know from Millie that fitting a modern engine is not easy because the engine control electronics are embedded in the security systems and the exhaust and intake systems has to modified changing fundamental characteristics.

I can’t believe that re-using an old engine is less green than, say, buying a modern Volkswagen diesel.

I did some work in the garage yesterday but heart is not in it.
Paul

[Peterx]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

I feel like my work of the last 13 years on Mark II is going to be scrapped on the altar of commercial interest! Doh! Double Doh! (24 stronger expletives deleted)

I know from Millie that fitting a modern engine is not easy because the engine control electronics are embedded in the security systems and the exhaust and intake systems has to modified changing fundamental characteristics.

I can’t believe that re-using an old engine is less green than, say, buying a modern Volkswagen diesel.

I did some work in the garage yesterday but heart is not in it.
Paul

Paul, what engine are you using?

[lynnx22]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

"4.13 When new vehicles were first required to be fitted with catalytic converters around 1992 (Euro 1 emissions standard), kit car makers typically used older engines which were not fitted with catalytic converters, hence the justification for age-appropriate testing of emissions based on date of engine manufacture or first use. The majority of the fleet is now vehicles up to 25 years old whose engines are fitted with catalytic converters, providing plenty of choice to the kit car builder"

That second sentence is completely spurious as a 1998 Euro 1 emission engine with catalyst won,t pass the latest Euro standard (6?) at a date of registration in the future. A nice way to kill the kitcar industry at a stroke.

[Peterx]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

That second sentence is completely spurious as a 1998 Euro 1 emission engine with catalyst won,t pass the latest Euro standard (6?) at a date of registration in the future. A nice way to kill the kitcar industry at a stroke.

I don't think it is quite as bad as that although that is how i read it first. What is says is that kitcar engines will have to comply with the MOT Basic Emissions Test.
The real issue is for builders who want to use engines that were designed prior to 1992. So BMC o series, VW air cooled, american V8's etc.
the proposal is badly written and open to lot of different interpretations.
Get writing and fill in the questionnaire....

http://www.smartsurvey.co.uk/s/road-emissions/

But you only have until tomorow, the 2nd March to express your dissatisfaction

[lynnx22]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

hmmmm, you sure?
"4.11 We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older engine."
Maybe if it said "at the date of donor vehicle registration" I,d agree - but that, of course, would still allow pinto, b series etc. It,s that "despite the use of" that's the killer.
I,ve done the survey.

[milliemarlin]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

Paul, what engine are you using?

My engine is a ford V6 cologne first installed in a car January 1989. No chance of passing a modern emissions test.