Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

[davidmartin720]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

I have been following this discussion with interest. When I took my Hunter with a Ford 2.1 injection engine for MOT to a local Ford garage they tried to fail it on emissions by insisting that as it was built in 1996 it needed a Cat test. When built at Marlin as far as I am aware it was not fitted with a Catalyst converter, the engine number was not put on the V5 as there is not one on the engine, and the front of the V5 it says "New build". I explained about Kit cars built prior to 1998 were treated as coming under "built before 1975" and smoke test only. Later when I carefully read the MOT test guide it did say, a "New car" built after 1992 would need to have a cat. I believe it was Section 7.2. I could not find the page today, so perhaps it has been super seeded. Interesting !!!! I just keep quiet about the "New Build" when I go for MOT. Has anybody else thoughts on this? David.

[dave_clutterbuck]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

I have been following this discussion with interest. When I took my Hunter with a Ford 2.1 injection engine for MOT to a local Ford garage they tried to fail it on emissions by insisting that as it was built in 1996 it needed a Cat test. When built at Marlin as far as I am aware it was not fitted with a Catalyst converter, the engine number was not put on the V5 as there is not one on the engine, and the front of the V5 it says "New build". I explained about Kit cars built prior to 1998 were treated as coming under "built before 1975" and smoke test only. Later when I carefully read the MOT test guide it did say, a "New car" built after 1992 would need to have a cat. I believe it was Section 7.2. I could not find the page today, so perhaps it has been super seeded. Interesting !!!! I just keep quiet about the "New Build" when I go for MOT. Has anybody else thoughts on this? David.

Same for me David, as far as I am aware mine was not fitted with a Cat when built in 1997.
I do have an engine number on my V5 but it does not match Ford serial numbers, when I uncover it in April I will look on the engine for the number.

[peterboat]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

Mine is fitted with a cat and all the Ford wiring is on the loom for the sensors also you may not know this but from this year the MOT manuals are defunct its an on line thing only now. Have your Hunters not got the Ford powertrain products plate on the bulkhead like mine? Anyway Why I know that my hunter has to be tested to 1997 limits is because the regional examiner was there when mine was being tested I didnt argue because I knew the car would pass which it did

[stevejgreen]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

It strikes me, that should this legislation come into force, it’s the duty of every kit car owner to ensure that their V5 is accurately up to date, today, to protect their future.
If you have previously ignored or bent the rules, whether deliberately or accidentally or customarily, you have to deal with the consequences of your decision, however harsh they appear.

It may impact those ‘mid build’ and I sympathise, but wasn’t that the case with SVA/IVA transition this is just another.

For instance, trying to IVA a Berlinetta today with its subframe issues, it is understood to be a major gamble in creating a garden ornament or a legal vehicle.

[andyf]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

There's an updated MOT handbook online and it seems to confirm that the situation is unchanged. It refers to the emission levels state on the v5 for newer kits...

[billjackson54]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

I too have been watching this thread with interest and have replied to the consultation cocument....despite its constant reference to undefined acronyms and undefined Euro standards. My own situation relates to an apparently complete and accurate V5 bearing engine number etc of the donor vehicle such that I have an age related registration and a private plate. The engine is (as any who have read any of my recent posts may remember) the 8 valve DOHC pre Zetec replacement of the Pinto engine. OK so far, except that the engine number I was looking for in one of those posts suggests that my engine was manufactured in 1994....and was fitted as a remanufactured / reconditioned / "new" replacement for the original that was manufactured in 1989. I have a single box stainless silencer slung under the n/s running board and no catalytic converter. The '89 engine would not have required one, but the '94 engine would? So I wonder where I stand. The engine is the rare carburated version, with a new carburetor, and I have a reconditioned cylinder head all ready to fit when (if) needed. I could send my V5 up to Swansea pdq to update the engine number, I suppose, in the hope of maintaining my MOT requirements as they are if DVLA "don't notice".....but otherwise it looks as if I'll need to perhaps redesign my exhaust system to incorporate a catalytic converter. Do they even work with a carburated engine? It begins to look as if I made a major tactical error going to the expense of sorting out my carburation and cylinder head.....perhaps I should have gone for a fully electronically managed Zetec with all the gizmos to meet up to engine-manufacture-date emission legislation? PLEASE tell me I'm wrong?

[andyf]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

I read all of this as affecting new registrations not as a retrospective change. This means that kits registered after the change will have to meet the current standards and this will be reflected on their v5 and the MOT inspector will use the existing rules to test the vehicle.

The MOT handbook is currently in draft and has been updated to reflect the changes in the proposal in other areas....

[ggrum]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

There is clearly considerable confusion over what the proposed changes might mean but my personal understanding is that it will apply to new registrations only but I could be wrong. There has been a large response from kit car manufacturers, clubs and individuals so I suggest we wait and see what happens. In the meantime 'Don't panic and carry on enjoying your cars' at least when the snow has gone!

[cabrioman]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

There is some interesting info on the mot standards that seem to clear up a lot of the misinformation regards emissions for existing registered kit cars.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mot-inspection-manual-for-class-3-4-5-and-7-vehicles

If you look at the current mot manual for emissions ( section 7) the requirements for kit cars are clearly explained. (See the note on kitcars on the non cat flow chart)

The draft version for may 18 onwards sets out a differrent standard for kitcars first used after 98, (see section 8), they will have to be tested and meet 98 year emmisions or whatever emission standards were in force when they were first registered after that date.

Kit cars prior to 98 first use are to be treated as first use before 75 for emission purposes.

So if this draft makes it into final release I think most of us should be ok, the problem is likley to be if you had a car that was say put on the road in 2010 and used an old 90’s engine for example, you might struggle to get it to 2010 emission limits.

Anyone with a kit car put on the road before august 98 should be ok, regardless of engine. The absolute date for the relaxation of older engine in a newer registered vehicle appears to be 2002. Vehicle before 2002 tested to age of engine if older, after 2002 reg date of vehicle.

John

[dave_clutterbuck]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

Mine is fitted with a cat and all the Ford wiring is on the loom for the sensors also you may not know this but from this year the MOT manuals are defunct its an on line thing only now. Have your Hunters not got the Ford powertrain products plate on the bulkhead like mine? Anyway Why I know that my hunter has to be tested to 1997 limits is because the regional examiner was there when mine was being tested I didnt argue because I knew the car would pass which it did

Mine does not have the Ford powertrain plate on the bulkhead.

[peterboat]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

Mine does not have the Ford powertrain plate on the bulkhead.

Its all very strange Dave, Hunters according to the blurb were built as new cars and in my case registered as such so it was fitted with all the requirements to pass the current MOT. I have a sales brochure as well proclaiming this! So have some Hunter owners been conned? ie secondhand parts used, or have owners changed the car over the years? Who knows and with Marlin will we ever get to the bottom of it

[peterboat]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

I do know the MOT is changing this year I was looking at paperwork for this when I was in Scotland last month, things that were advisory will mow be a fail [engine management light on] so it will be interesting how we fare with our cars

[dave_clutterbuck]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

Its all very strange Dave, Hunters according to the blurb were built as new cars and in my case registered as such so it was fitted with all the requirements to pass the current MOT. I have a sales brochure as well proclaiming this! So have some Hunter owners been conned? ie secondhand parts used, or have owners changed the car over the years? Who knows and with Marlin will we ever get to the bottom of it

All very entertaining
May be things changed regarding documentation at Marlin between 1997 & 1998
From my point of view I need to establish the engine number on the engine, as it looks like there is a typo on the V5.
As far as I am aware the original engine is still in the car.

[chris_cussen]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

Since my V5 shows no emmisions data whatsoever it still is open to interpretation. Quote from the new manual.
"Kit cars
and amateur built vehicles
first used on or after 1 August 1998
are required to obtain
either Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) or Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) and should be tested to
the limits stated on the vehicles registration document (V5c). Where no
limits are stated on the
registration document, normal limits must be applied relative to the vehicles date of first use."
Now given a car, passed IVA in, say 2009, using a 1990 donor, and given an age related registration, was it 'first used' in 1990, or 2009?

[burnside]

Re: Road Vehicles, improving air quality and safety-Gov.UK

A quite silly but important question which could have an annoying interpretation either way i think !

My car was registered on the first of August 1998 so it should be Pre 1st August 1998 ruling re emissions or could it be subject to the interpretation of post 1st August 1998 as it was

registered on the date in question anyone any ideas ?