Mark II – Engine woes

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Thanks Phil, it really helps to have somebody to check I’m looking at the right things. As you say there is a lot to look at there. I have to do fencing today (putting up a fence) so I doubt I will get much done today. One thing I might try is changing the ECU. The car came with two I studied them very carefully and could see no difference. It also had two engine looms. I checked both of them and, without taking them apart, I believe them to be the same. As you say Ford are keen on “continuous development” or changing things wily nily so there could be a difference.
On the injectors; the V6 divides them into two groups of three serving left and right cylinder banks. Ford numbers the cylinders starting at the front 1 to 3 on the rhs 4 to 6 on the lhs. The injectors are pretty inaccessible under the plenum chamber. The only connector I can access without taking things apart is the right hand rear (number 3). The connector has just two wires one is connected to +12V when the ignition is on. The other goes to the ECU. The circuit diag does not show the body as being grounded. I guess that the injector is a simple coil magnet. I wish I had a spare so I could see if it operated. I do know that, by poking wires into the connector, a simple light flashes when engine is turning over. So why do see no petrol in any cylinder? Could I have burnt both banks out somehow? I will check the resistance today.
Too late to save my hair.

[philcoyle]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

There is no ground as such,

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Blasted thing!
I have changed the ECU – no different. I checked the injector 14.3 ohms which is fine.
What now? I wonder if connecting up the light is misleading me. The ECU varies the pulse to adjust the fuelling is it giving too short a pulse. Could the ECU be grounding sufficiently to light up the light but not to open the injector? If so why?
There a couple of mystery wires coming out of the ECU.
Pin 30 brown and white is the auto inhibit. I have connected this to +12V. I also tried grounding it.
Pin 4 Brown and yellow is not shown in the circuit diagram. It reads 5V. It could be the engine check light.
Pin 17 brown and green connects to the diagnostic connector and to a page that is not in the manual.
Does anybody know exactly what these pins do? There are lots of references on the web, including many US vehicles, but none match mine exactly.
Paul

[philcoyle]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

You should

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

I attach a picture of the injector. Grey?
The fuel pump is certainly working as I can see the pressure in the fuel rail.
The circuit diagram in the Haynes manual is not the best. The wiring diagram is for the 2.8 Litre, mine is 2.9. Pin 17 is shown as going to a sheet, 24, that is not included. Pin 4 is not shown at all.
The schematic for EEC-IV pin 30 auto inhibit wanders over 6 pages. I will attach a scan of the switch. The auto inhibit select wiper looks like it is connected to the live wire. I now realise it is actually connected to the body of the switch which is shown as earthed at the bottom.
I am sure my pin 4 is different to yours as the engine loom has not been taken apart. I can find thousands of pin outs for EEC-IV most of them for American cars or later versions. Pin 4 is listed as ignition diagnostic monitor, check engine light, ignition control module, ignition coil negative term, signal from ignition system and EDIS Module. My pin 4 is connected to a chip 012G S832, see picture. Does anybody know what that chip is? The pin is at 0.2V but I don’t know if that is correct. As it is not pulled up to 12V I doubt that it is an inhibit input. As it is not showing as an error in the ECU I don’t think it is a sender input. It could be an output.
I have rigged up a led and switch to the diagnostic connector pin 17, 48 & ground. You can count the flashes to get the diagnostic codes. I got code 11 no fault. Just to check I tried disconnecting a couple of senders and got the appropriate fault codes.
I have rigged up an LED to show when the injectors are open and put the right hand bank spark plugs so they can be seen. I took a video of it. The video is 25 frames per minute; that is a frame every 40 milliseconds (ms). I can work out that the starter turns the engine at 36 rpm. I can see the plugs sparking in the right order. The injector led lights but mostly only in one frame so about 40ms, which could be ok. Photo attached showing led lit and a spark on cylinder 1 plug.
I did notice that when trying the starter after some time I got no led or spark. But it always seems to work second time. This is a puzzle so I tried with the auto inhibit disconnected to prevent starting. The behaviour was exactly the same. So I guess that root of the problem is that the ECU does not want to allow it to start.
I have measured the voltage on every pin and all are in the right range (with the exception of pin 4.) So what is it the ECU upset about?
I can find absolutely nothing wrong with this freaking engine. Except it won’t start!

[philcoyle]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Did you check that the fuel pump relay clicked and also

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Thanks for your quick reply.

“Did you check that the fuel pump relay clicked and also the ECU power relay clicked at the same time.”
I am certain that the fuel pump is working because of the pressure and I have measured the voltage at the ECU.

“Number four pin is used depending on the type of EFi system you have on your engine, and by your photos I would say that you have TFi system. Ignition module on the side of the distributor.”
I do have a TFi system. I have not changed the engine loom I attach a diagram, taken from Haynes, showing the dizzy connections for this engine. I have checked the voltages at the ECU and I am fairly confident that this part of the circuit is working.

“Ford and Bosch kept the same pin numbers for the ECU regardless of model, and your pin 4 goes to the ign module on the side of the dizzy.”
You seem equally confident that pin 4 should be connected to the dizzy. Do you have a diagram to compare?

“Seeing that you have a spark have you tried dribbling some petrol down the plug holes and then put the plugs in and fire it up.”
I did try that but nothing happened. Not sure why. It might be because the initial cranking, with no spark, expelled the vapour.

“Where is that chip actually located?”
In the EEC-IV unit there are several vertical boards. See photo. The vertical board towards the bottom right.

“On reflection that chip thingy looks like someones attempt to get MORE POWER, and you could probably do away with it and connect pin 4 to the dizzy where it should be.”
I am pretty confident that it is a standard unit. When hacking an ECU the eprom chip would be the first to be replaced and that looks standard. Incidentally the two ECUs Are different in that the eproms are different. That is they have different programs. One is labelled 8BJA the other 6GBD. Both are for a 2.9 V6 litre petrol engines. One is for an 89-90 Granada the other is 87-90 Granada Automatic. I can’t decide which is best. I am currently using the 89-90 Granada as that seems to match the engine best. Photo is of the other one.

It could be time to chuck this thing out and buy a V8 crate engine, like they do in American hot rod programs.
Paul

[philcoyle]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

http://www.fordopedia.org/parts-catalog/24-29-v6/B7.60 This may help to identify the ECU that is for your engine, you can find out the year and month of the engine by using the engine number. http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-gu...ure-dates.html

[stevejgreen]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Are you sure the injectors are not blocked?
If you have a spark, have you tries a squirt of easy start into the air intake?
It seems as though you have tried everything else!

[philcoyle]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Test pin36 (PIP)

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Phil and Steve,
Thanks for your suggestions.

Useful websites, thanks. I asked the SVA chaps what they need to know about the engine. They suggested that I write Fords to get the date of manufacture. Which is how I know the engine was first installed in Jan 89.

There is a strong possibility that the injectors are blocked or ceased. The cheapest I can find is about £82. To replace all 6 would be getting on for £500. Then the engine could turn out to be duff. So I’m certainly hoping it is something else. I understand that it is rare for injectors to fail completely but can be responsible for rough running. I guess it is unlikely that all six would fail completely. I also think the fact that there is no change when the auto inhibit is not earthed indicates other problems.

There are only 12 wires to connect up the loom:
1. Battery live
2. Ignition power*
3. Start advance*
4. Fuel pump power*
5. Coolant temp*
6. Oil pressure light*
7. Tacho pulse*
8. 3 Ground wires
9. A/C clutch
10. Auto inhibit*
11. Pin 4?*
12. Pin 17?*
Those with an * are connected through a 9 way connector. I am confident the first 8 wires are connected correctly. A/C clutch is an output. Auto inhibit must be grounded. The last two are a puzzle.

I mentioned that at first neither the light nor spark were present on first cranking. I think this is due to the coil power being connected with the pump. I have been allowing the pump to run until it switches off, then attempting to crank. It is hard to hear if the pump restarts during cranking.

Regrettably, I have been having so much fun in the garage that I have fallen behind in my other tasks. So it will be a while before I can try out your suggestions. I think you are right to suggest it might be a timing problem.

Sorry if my explanations are somewhat long and basic. I am trying to go through everything in my own mind.
Paul

[lil_red_roadster]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Timing is definitely worth checking.
I had some issues with my Rover T16 last year (rough idle, excessive heat, periodic cut outs) and as part of the investigation eventually discovered that the timing belt had slipped, significantly retarding the timing (hence the roughness & extra heat).
This was compounded by a failing HP fuel pump, which after 45 minutes or so of running would start to cut out (deformed & cracked body around one of the contacts).
Whether the retardation caused other issues is open to debate but seems probable - the pump damage could have been exacerbated by heat build-up and the ally oil pump casing had also begun to deform leading to a sticky relief valve.
After replacing and re-timing the cam belt, replacing all fuel lines & filters, a new oil pump and both HP & LP fuel pumps normal service appears to have resumed.
I got so fed up with the whole thing I seriously thought about weighing it in...but it was worth the perseverance in the end.

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

I have come across that darned photo before. After seeing that photo I took the dizzy out to see if it had been put in wrong. It is not that the plug leads are in the wrong place but the whole dizzy is at a different angle. I have tried to put the thing in with the gear in the next tooth but the difference is much too great. I cannot turn my dizzy to that angle because the shielding fouls the fuel pressure relief valve. That engine is also different in a number of other respects such as it has no fuel temperature switch. I don’t think the dizzy is connected to the coil so it might not be a running engine. It looks like it is in a kit car doesn’t it?
I don’t think Wikipedia will mind me showing part of the engine for comparison with mine, as long as I include an attribution.
The dizzy is covered in the Granada and can’t be seen in most photos.
At the end of the day isn’t it the timing as seen with the strobe that counts? The ECU gets all its engine position information from the dizzy. There are no crankshaft or camshaft senders.
The other photo shows the Hall Effect on the leading edge of the short segment when number one cylinder is at tdc.

[milliemarlin]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

She’s alive! Wahoo!

But only just. I was adjusting the timing when I realised that one of the cylinders was firing. So the only possibility was that the injectors were jammed and one had decided to free itself. I played a heat gun on the others to encourage them into life. The engine now runs on 4 of 6. With luck the other cylinders will wake up when the engine warms up. I’m hoping if I don’t wait 14 years the injectors will still be working next time I try to start it.

Thanks to all for your help and encouragement.
Paul

[bryannewell]

Re: Mark II – Engine woes

Great news Paul
Heading in the right direction!!
Bryan